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NFA Questions Answered

Mike Grasso Feb 11, 2015

  1. Mike Grasso

    Mike Grasso "to protect and to serve" Super Moderator Brigade Member

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    If you have questions on how to do paperwork, where to get pieces and parts and general guidance issues, post them here.

    Mike

    eFile Walkthrough
    NFA Trust
    Form 1, 3, 4
    Turnaround
    Silencer picks
    Manufacturers
     
  2. El Gringo

    El Gringo dashing devil

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    Ok.. no one else wanted to raise their hands. What is the abbreviations NFA ? I kinda get its for suppressors and stuff.
    I've really ignorant in the world of suppressors, short rifles and such.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2015
  3. Mike Grasso

    Mike Grasso "to protect and to serve" Super Moderator Brigade Member

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    National Firearms Act.
    It's Machineguns, SBR (Short Barreled Rifle), SBS (Short Barreled Shotgun), Suppressors and AOW (Any other Weapon).

    All the special licensed, tax stamped weapons.
     
  4. El Gringo

    El Gringo dashing devil

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    Thanks!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2015
  5. gpd215

    gpd215 Brigade Member Brigade Member

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    I already own a SBR with a standard stamp. I have no issues getting a signature for a standard form or fingerprints. Is there an advantage for a trust?
     
  6. Mike Grasso

    Mike Grasso "to protect and to serve" Super Moderator Brigade Member

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    The points you just made are most of the problem. Your "status" can change at any time with the change of a political climate at the local Law Enforcement Agency.

    A "standard" stamp with a signature and fingerprints is for an individual.
    And only that individual.

    A trust is much like a Corporation. It has "trustee's", multiple people who can be in possession of the weapon.

    Right now if you were to have an accident or die of some type of incident. The weapons would be immediately confiscated by the Police. Since no one can legally can possess them but you.

    In a Trust nothing would happen. Any of the Trustee's can legally have them in their possession (if ofcourse it's legal for them)..

    Unless you had no friends, no relatives, the standard individual stamp no longer has any positive points.

    The Trust is quicker, does not rely on on another entity giving you the go ahead before you send it and protects your Heirs and family.

    In a nutshell:
    1) No fingerprint cards
    2) No CLEO signoff
    3) No photographs
    4) Ability to add people as co-trustees as I see fit.
    5) Instructions/plan of succession should I become incapacitated or die that doesn't put my heirs/spouse in violation of the NFA
    6) So that in our normal household disaster planning, the gun safe combination can be placed in the document safe that my wife has access to, therefore not being in "constructive possession".
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 12, 2015
  7. fod

    fod Hand of the Box Master Knife Maker or Craftsman

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    Thanks for doing this Mike!


    RE: trust

    DIY vs lawyer?
     
  8. Mike Grasso

    Mike Grasso "to protect and to serve" Super Moderator Brigade Member

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    It's pretty simple but the laws and wording vary from State to State, can't hurt to have the Lawyer look it over.
     
  9. perado

    perado Shoot to thrill

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    Since I already have a trust, what steps do I need to make an addition?

    Also, would I be able to add the second NFA item through e-file? If so, would you give a quick walk-through?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  10. Mike Grasso

    Mike Grasso "to protect and to serve" Super Moderator Brigade Member

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    What type of addition?

    Efile has some little quirks.
    I'd be glad to help, might take a phone call when you are ready.


    Make sure you have your signed Trust in PDF and in a small file size.
    Your schedule A modified to include the new item.
    Your proof of citizenship in PDF.


    Then call.
     
  11. perado

    perado Shoot to thrill

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    10-4 thanks, it'll be a little while; I just spent my allowance on ammo, light, and optics.
    I'll be adding another suppressor; not sure whether to make it a .45 or just a .30. The Gemtech I have is a good little device, but it's strictly .22LR at the most. The more I look the more I see that I need to research the different mounting options for any potential hosts.
     
  12. falcon125

    falcon125 the express train to mayhem Brigade Member

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    Is there any advantage/disadvantage to a trust as opposed to a LLC or INC.?
     
  13. sleepyogre

    sleepyogre Little member

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    Thanks for the info. I have been looking to get a few things and have been hesitant.
     
  14. TheBadGuy

    TheBadGuy NATURE'S FINEST Super Moderator

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    Ok, I have a few questions. I just bought a lower I plan to SBR. I want to build a 300 blk with 8.5" barrel. I was told something I never heard at a gun shop today and I wanted to confirm. I believe on the paperwork you have to give your barrel length and overall length correct? The guy at the gun shop said that you should put 14.5" barrel as you can go shorter than your paperwork says but not longer. Does that sound right? That seems the opposite of what I would think. So what do you recommend for barrel and overall length considering I haven't bought the upper yet (can't legally since I don't have a pistol upper right technically right?) Also you have to put what caliber. I thought I read somewhere that you can put multiple calibers (IE put 300 blk & 5.56) that way I can always pin on a short 5.56 upper but guy at this gunshop says you'll get denied if you have multiple calibers. Any insight on either of these? I want to be sure I do this right so I get the most bang for my buck with the tax stamp and I don't want to be limited more than I have to when it comes to caliber or length.

    Thanks
    Jason
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 8, 2015
  15. Mike Grasso

    Mike Grasso "to protect and to serve" Super Moderator Brigade Member

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    Individual Ownership
    Pros:
    - Least complicated first purchase. (No need to get a lawyer nvolved)
    - Least expensive because there are no start-up or maintenance costs
    - Upon death, NFA items can be transferred to your "heir" tax free with a ATF Form 5 (5320.5)
    Cons:
    - Must get fingerprinted for each NFA application
    - Must get CLEO sign-off
    - Only the registered individual is allowed to have access to the item. Others may use the item only in the registered user's presense.
    - Form 5 transfer at time of Death can take a year

    Trust Ownership
    Pros:
    - Fingerprinting not required
    - CLEO sign-off not requred
    - Reasonable one-time start-up fee with no annual fees
    - All settlers and trustees can have access to the NFA items (if the trust allows it)
    Cons:
    - Must submit a copy of trust with the form for each purchase


    LLC / Corp Ownership
    Pros:
    - Fingerprinting not required
    - CLEO sign-off not requred
    - Lasts forever if maintained properly. Meaning that you can pass down your LLC and it's NFA assets to future generations without Form transfers.
    - Can sell the LLC along with it's NFA assets without Form transfer fees (to anyone that can legally possess firearms)
    - Limitation of Liability. If an "accident" occurs by an authorized user, liability is limited to that user and the LLC
    - LLC can authorize individuals access to NFA items
    Cons:
    - Must file an annual report to maintain.
    - Must file tax return
    - Basically it's a business, so the government expects a profit or to close it in a reasonable time.
    - Information about your LLC is publicly available (such as address)
     
  16. Mike Grasso

    Mike Grasso "to protect and to serve" Super Moderator Brigade Member

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    Jason, your buddy at the gun shop is an idiot.

    A) Find a new Gunshop.
    B) Show him this post, give him my phone number, I'll tell him myself :madaddy:

    C) You want to register the NFA weapon in it's SHORTEST
    form. You were right on target, common sense.
    You can go bigger, you can't go smaller.

    D) You must give it a caliber for the first one you build, i.e.. 300BO. Then if you mix and match sizes and caliber latter, that's fine, as long as the bbl and OAL do not go under.

    I usually put a 8" on the BBL length and measure overall to the end of the receiver.
    You never know if you'll do some type of folder in the future.
     
  17. TheBadGuy

    TheBadGuy NATURE'S FINEST Super Moderator

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    Defiantly not my buddy (gun shop guy) :devilzeek:bwah:

    Yeah I hate it when someone gives out bad info like that. It made no sense at all. So since you can always go longer, I know there are some 7" 300 BLK barrels out there, I will just go end of receiver to the end of a 7" barrel then if I get some type of folding stock or a 8" barrel I'm all set then? Good deal, thanks for the info! I plan to submit my paperwork next week electronically.

    Last question. I know you have to have your trust name, city and state engraved. I have a guy I was going to send lower off to in order to have it engraved. Does it need to include the "Revokable Living" part in the engraving? Some say yes, some say no because its just the type of trust. My trust name is already long as its my full name. I didn't pick it out when I got it, the trust creator did and its not ideal for an SBR.

    Thanks
    Jason
     
  18. TheBadGuy

    TheBadGuy NATURE'S FINEST Super Moderator

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    This gun shop was not one I frequent often, I was just in the area and stopped in. When he told me that, I was surprised because as I mentioned it seems like it would be the opposite. The bad part is, his exact words were "Yeah I always tell people to put 14.5" that way they will be covered" :unintroduced::bwah: Wonder how many people are out there that followed his advice and are out of regs with their SBR?
     
  19. Mike Grasso

    Mike Grasso "to protect and to serve" Super Moderator Brigade Member

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    Some key points to note when completing a Form 1 for a Gun Trust:
    2 – For a Gun Trust or Corporation select the middle box which says Corporation or Other Business entity.
    3b Should have your Gun Trust name and the address where the item will be stored, not necessarily the address of your Gun Trust. The address or location where the trust was created is the address where it was created and nothing more.
    3d Should contain the county you live in or will be making the item in. Do not put the country. The county or parish should be used and not USA or United States
    4a Should contain the Manufacturer’s name or if you are the manufacture, the Gun Trust’s Name.
    4b should contain the type of firearm (Suppressor, SBR, SBS, Machine Gun, AOW, DD).
    4c should contain the caliber or gage ( 300 CAL or Multi is not acceptable, you can only list one, if you have additional calibers you want to list, you should attach additional configurations in a letter attached to your Form 1 stating the caliber, barrel length, and overall length as related to the firearm listed on the Form 1.)
    Here is a sample form you may use to add Additional Configurations or to add configurations later.
    Previously ATF accepted them by being listed in 4h on the Form 1 but no longer accepts this. You can send in this letter later if you would like to change the configuration after the submission or approval process.
    4d should contain the model number of the firearm. (For a Suppressor You would need to create a model number)
    4e should contain the length of the Barrel number of the firearm. If there is a Flash Hider you include in the length if the flash hider it is pined and welded (you can only list 1) (For a Suppressor you should use N/A)

    4f should contain the overall length of the firearm. (For a Suppressor use the overall length of the Suppressor) (If there is a folding stock or adjustable stock, this length should be the shortest length)

    4g should contain the serial number of the lower and if there is not a serial number, you should create one that will be engraved it should be unique.

    4h will normally be blank, but if there are other markings or numbers on the item, they should be included here.

    4i should contain “any lawful purpose” unless your state requires for a scientific or experimental purpose – see your state restrictions on NFA firearms. (ATF has updated the requirements for NC – See our North Carolina Gun Trust Lawyer® state information page.

    4j will normally be checked NO but if it was an NFA item that was removed from the NFA previously check YES.

    5 Generally, this will be blank for a Gun Trust. If the person or Gun trust who is asking for permission to build the item is an FFL enter the 15 digit license number. Generally an FFL should not use a Form 1 to manufacture a Firearm unless they have the proper license to do so and then a Form 1 would not be the proper way to manufacture Title II firearms. A Form 1 is primarily for a person, Gun Trust or other business entity to request permission to make an item subject to the NFA.
    6 If you have a SOT enter the SOT license number in A and the Class in B. As a Gun trust you should not have a FFL or SOT.
    7 Sign your name as trustee.

    8 Print or type your name as trustee.

    9 Date the Application.

    10-11 You must answer these truthfully, if you answer yes to any you will probably not be allowed to purchase. Once exception to this is question 10d for certain transfers.
    12 – 13 Ignore these for a NFA or Gun Trust or business purchases as they are not necessary.
     
  20. Mike Grasso

    Mike Grasso "to protect and to serve" Super Moderator Brigade Member

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    It's whatever is in the first line of your trust. If you Fill the form out without "revocable" you will find out the first time if it works. Or just have it renamed smaller before your first submittal...

    Mine is "MAGRASSO TRUST" so my receiver's look like this... 2015-03-08 16.02.09.jpg
     

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