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New Production Balisong Feedback (give me what you got)

Chris@HazeTac Dec 10, 2020

  1. Chris@HazeTac

    Chris@HazeTac Little Member

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    Hello devils,

    I have been reading through tons of balisong threads for quite some time trying to understand what flippers in general like and dislike about the current options that are available so that I can try to produce a product that can address the needs and wants of flippers.

    Below are some CAD renderings I have made for a flipper based on what seems to work for us broadly.

    The blade is hollow ground(CNC'ed) A2 surface ground after heat treat as I am very familiar with this steel and it's heat treating in my shop. It just works. I'd be open to working with different steels in the future however.

    • The slabs and back spacers are 6al-4v titanium and will be surface ground to maintain parallelism
    • The pivot barrels, pocket clip barrels, and latch body are 6al-4v3li titanium.
    • Pins are stainless steel.
    • Screws can be titanium (for coloring with anodizing or heat to match handles) or stainless steel torx.
    • Pivot barrels are .1875 o.d and bushings are .250 o.d with .0005 clearance
    • Pivots will ride on phosphor bronze with .0005 clearance to minimize handle play
    • Weight of knife with no decorative lightening slots and holes is 5.6oz
    • Weight with decorative slots and holes as modeled is 4.78oz
    • Handle length is 5.38"
    • Blade is 4.5" from tip to handle when open
    • Overall open length is 10"
    • All made and heat treated in house
    Weight and distribution seems to be most important to most flippers including myself so I am hoping to get some feedback from members here on what a good baseline weight would be and where to put it. I plan to make spacers available in different materials to give individual users the ability to customize and tune weight to their preference though. The modeled pattern is not set in stone so all suggestions are welcome and I plan to offer different patterns for the different weight preferences and grip preferences. However, I want to try to keep the cost in check (less than $400ea) so I don't want to go full custom design your own for production purposes. But I do intend to make replacement scales available so that you can customize or upgrade.

    I currently make full channel balisong knives not in titanium but they are more geared towards EDC than flipping. I have looked into using channel titanium for this current project but the proper size and shape of stock available is severely lacking, too heavy, and stupid expensive so sandwich seems to fit the bill more appropriately here.

    I have materials to make 8 of these knives currently. I am hoping to find 8 members that would like to purchase these and help me to improve the design by providing feedback after they get them and flip em' a bit. I am thinking of calling these HazeTac Devils :firedevil if the board approves and make them available commercially on my webstore at www.hazetac.com.

    I am a registered small self owned business in Colorado and my shop is on my own property so no worries about covid shutting me down or fly by night build it and they will come nonsense.

    Let me know what you all think and throw feedback my way if you would please.

    Thanks,

    Chris
    Screenshot (4).png Screenshot (6).png Screenshot (12).png Screenshot (15).png Screenshot (25).png Screenshot (29).png
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2020
  2. AnthonyTheAbyss

    AnthonyTheAbyss Godzilla Size Member JDBA Official Member

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    Very nice. Very impressive presentation

    Notes...

    - $400 price point has a lot of competition
    - Design is pretty "ordinary" as, for example, compared to a HOM Basilisk-R or Alpha Beast (two distinct designs that are easily recognizable)
    - Really like the shape/design of the tang pin area and the spacers
    - One of my favorite blade profiles but if it isn't a deep hollow grind it's pretty standard/ordinary
    - The second balisong design looks like a Dogbite bali kit (which cost me $100)

    Honestly, nothing bad to say about it. But nothing that would make me drop $400 and pee my pants either.

    ***What's an internal cone blast forwarder?
     
  3. Chris@HazeTac

    Chris@HazeTac Little Member

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    Thank you for your feedback. Like I said, design is just for example. I am hoping to get more input on what people prefer for how different patterns feel to the user. What is preferred. Do you like a sharper edge feel or smooth. Basically, how much does the pattern matter to performance to you?

    The last two photos are of the "blank" design of which different patterns will be overlaid. Just wanted to give a sense of the bones and have a base weight to start from.

    I agree on the deep hollow grind but it brings me to another question. Do you guys use your flippers for for general cutting tasks or are the blade designs you like more for the look? Or is it a tradeoff area for you?

    Pricing was meant to say (>$400). I will edit thank you for catching that for me. As for pricing, I am giving an "estimate" of what I think it will cost when all said and done but can't know for certain until I setup for production but wanted to put a price down to head off that question. The crazier the design gets, the more likely specialized tooling becomes needed.

    Blast cone is a blast forwarder, used on AR-15 and similar rifles to push the blast wave of the bullet forward to help with the concussive force the shooter and anyone to the side of the shooter feels. Without one, anyone next to you when shooting will not stay there after the first shot :)
     
    Rocco and Balibuyer like this.
  4. Blurred Memories

    Blurred Memories JDBA OFFICIAL Member JDBA Official Member

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    I for one wish current makers would radius all the handle end corners and just in general softer edges, but especially those bottom corners!
     
  5. Chris@HazeTac

    Chris@HazeTac Little Member

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    I have the bottom of the handle corners radiused on the model but not a lot. Hard to radius too much due to the latch detents. I will model heavier radius’s and a deeper hollow grind plus add another design to the handles and post tomorrow to see what you guys think.

    thanks for the responses and feedback thus far! This is what I hoped for with this thread so keep them coming.

    Chris
     
  6. crogers

    crogers Magnus advocatus diaboli Super Moderator Brigade Member

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    When you consider the popularity of the latchless ChAB, and look at the large percentage of flippers that remove the latch, perhaps a latchless model would be popular, jus' sayin'...
     
  7. TheronJ

    TheronJ JDBA4L JDBA Official Member

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    Looks pretty nice.

    Keep the position of the tang cups in relation to the tang horns in mind though. As they are now, they look very pinchy, which typically happens when there's a lot of overlap between the two. It's one of the main criticisms of the otherwise excellent (and very comparable to your design) Hinderer Nieves.

    Promising stuff overall and i'm glad to see that you've done research instead of just jumping in like some makers do.

    If you do a passaround or just need someone to give feedback, I'm down to do a full review and such like I did for @senseicharles and a few others across the net like Maxace, Atropos, Machinewize etc...
     
    Balibuyer likes this.
  8. Chris@HazeTac

    Chris@HazeTac Little Member

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    This was a great tip! I fought this on my channel bali as well and I hadn't remembered it until you brought it up so thank you very much.

    Here's a closeup of the tang pins and pockets. They have been relieved but I kept as much bearing in the pocket as I could in order to keep wear to a minimum instead of a point load.
    Screenshot (60).png
     
  9. Chris@HazeTac

    Chris@HazeTac Little Member

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    Which do you like better? Since it was recommended that I should just make this without a latch given the likelihood of it being removed anyhow, it has opened the door to do whatever I want to the handle butt ends.
    Screenshot (66).png Screenshot (67).png
     
  10. Chris@HazeTac

    Chris@HazeTac Little Member

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    It's hard to show the depth of the grind in renderings but this is as deep as I can make it without starting to weaken the spine at the tip. This is why I ask whether the look is more important than the function. I would hate to make a knife that has tip break problems just to make it look cooler...if this isnt deep enough then I would have to start looking at a different blade shape I think.
    Screenshot (61).png Screenshot (62).png Screenshot (57).png Screenshot (58).png
     
    Balibuyer likes this.
  11. Chris@HazeTac

    Chris@HazeTac Little Member

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    I worked on a new design today and posted them below. Please let me know what you think and whether you guys like the pointed handle butts or rounded better.

    If we go latchless with this, I believe this will take this to the sub $300 level. Latches add more than one would think to making balisongs. I like that it opens up the design opportunities and also allows for much greater ability to play with the weight of the spacers.

    Keep the comments and feedback coming pease and I really appreciate it!

    Chris Screenshot (68).png Screenshot (63).png Screenshot (56).png Screenshot (50).png Screenshot (51).png Screenshot (64).png
     
  12. Chris@HazeTac

    Chris@HazeTac Little Member

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    I will put you at the top of the list for a passaround when the time comes! Thank you for offering.
     
  13. Chris@HazeTac

    Chris@HazeTac Little Member

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    Oh and current design is at 4.7oz
     
    Shawnjohn999999 likes this.
  14. Blurred Memories

    Blurred Memories JDBA OFFICIAL Member JDBA Official Member

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    for balisongs, I for sure prefer tips that aren't designed to break if you sneeze while holding the knife. ( eyes basilisk r ).



    By far, the most important thing to me is BALANCE. Total weight is almost irrelevant.

    Everyone has their margin of comfort, but i try to keep mine as broad as possible. Its pretty much two extremes that bother me the most, blade being heavier than one handle, and one handle being so heavy as to make fanning bias the knife to point straight out rather than inline with the handle that's spinning.

    Of course, there's infinite nuances to how much weight and where exactly it is, and true neutral balance annoys me greatly but still not a deal breaker.

    people that like chaplains are probably going to want to be even further from neutral balance.

    My opinion, form should follow function and therefore not priority, but there's thousands of very successful examples of sacrificing at least some function for form. Lamborghini and Harley-Davidson come to mind.

    so maybe just "Mostly" follow function.

    #sturdierbalitipsplease
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2020
    TheChemist and nightrage like this.
  15. Pinoy Knife

    Pinoy Knife JDBA4L JDBA Official Member

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    Dude don't use Chevrons!!!! BRS guys will throw a fit as ONLY BRS can use CHEVRONS....
    i have 2 knives with Chevrons cut through the titanium and am now looked down at because of it !!!!
     
  16. Chris@HazeTac

    Chris@HazeTac Little Member

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    Oh man...it's almost like I wasted several hours of my morning yesterday lol. Sounds like you're a fellow maker so I will only ask this to you and hope no one else see's it wink wink. Do folks not realize how little real estate there is to work with on a knife scale especially a bali and how few geometric shape combinations there are that can actually be cut into a surface? You can't use circles, Goodyear uses circles. Just kidding of course but it is a real conundrum. Artists and engineers love to enthusiastically wave their digital french curves at everything but we could solve those problems by just one time, us doers hand them their drawings and the keys to our shops and tell them we'll be back in the morning and we expect it to be done 3 hours before they start and for 20% of the cost!:bennyda:

    I appreciate your personal expierience warning and certainly will take it highly into consideration. Sucks cause I just finished playing more with the design while thinking about grip positions...

    What do you guys say, will this be held against me? I am certainly not trying to copy anyone's design. If I was, I wouldn't be here asking all these questions and input from the community.

    Screenshot (70).png
     
    seandavid55 likes this.
  17. Shawnjohn999999

    Shawnjohn999999 Huge Member

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    Handles. People steal handles. Its the grinds. Thats the money shot.
     
    apdallaround likes this.
  18. Chris@HazeTac

    Chris@HazeTac Little Member

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    I dont know about theft, I'm sure it happens, but I would have to see the example. To me, there is so much overlap for a reason. With blades, it's because of function and what works, for scales it's a combination of $+function+what can be done with the given space and manufacturing tech in my opinion. With either, if you go too far outside the box of those constraints you end up with something that no longer works but probably looks extremely unique. Occasionally someone bucks that trend and good on them! That's how things progress.

    As far as grinds being the money shot, does that apply to BRS too? I see their bali's being what they are because of function over form.I am a function first guy.
     
    seandavid55 likes this.
  19. Blurred Memories

    Blurred Memories JDBA OFFICIAL Member JDBA Official Member

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    don't sweat the handle "design" too much, you can always iterate that, creating v1s v2s and shit the collector market will love. personally I rather enjoy learning an artist's original vision than what usually results from design by committee.

    That being said, if you're still enjoying random feedback..

    one small thing i enjoy about any knife is when you set the knife open and edge down that the blade does not touch the surface.
    its one of those things that's not a deal breaker for me, just disappointing when it happens.

    those horns will usually facilitate that.

    ~b
     
  20. Chris@HazeTac

    Chris@HazeTac Little Member

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    You my friend are exactly the reason I am here trying to do this project the way I am! Every bit of your feedback is spot on for the audience I want to speak to and that I identify with. Any input you give, I am listening period. I haven't found anywhere else that has people that think about the little things like this let alone appreciate them. Bling bling everywhere bling.

    The horns are the length they are for a reason, and if the knife you are holding didn't take this into consideration, then the maker might be one of those chevron stealers talked about above!:cutty:
    Screenshot (72).png
     

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