Dealers/ Makers/ Purveyors/ Customers

[Mr.LaBella]

Lets tackle the "sole authorship" issue. Stock removal, forgers, wheelers and dealers...I would like to hear some comments on this currently hot issue.

[RoadFish]

Isn't that something you should address to Barry Gordy and Motown?

[Ariel Salaverria]

In terms of use, if the knife performs properly and the customer knows how it's really made, it's all good. That's all that matters in my book.

Now, regarding personal preferences, the soul of the knife and stuff like that, each one is free to choose the best maker for their special knife.

As a forging maker, I'm not going to look down on any maker for outsourcing methods, using a CNC or stock removal methods, they're all valid methods to come to the final piece.

I believe some people (makers and customers all alike) should focus more in the final pieces instead of trying to deconstruct entire processes that they don't really understand.
(If they do understand them and it's a matter of personal preferences, it's perfectly OK though)

Regards,

Ariel

[SAR]

Ron it all boils down to opinion

For me personaly here is mine.

Some models coming from my shop are profiled by water-jet at Halpern titanium like the Hornets and the UTU. These designs are very difficult and time consuming to layout, drill, cut and profile matter of fact it takes well over an hour to produce just one Hornet the conventional way. So time, money , wear and tear, belts, and materials are saved.

This is what comes back from Halpern, its a far cry from a finished knife.



Other designs, prototypes, one offs, are done the 100% hand made method or machine assisted? layout, cut, drill, shape etc.



Some of my knives go to Paul Bos, I have two 22" evenheat ovens in the shop, rockwell tester the whole nine yards. Once again it frees me up to do other stuff. The time saved is huge I have a batch of 30 knives going to Paul it would take a few days to get the HT done and at a cost that would exceed what Paul charges makes $ense to me.

It all comes down to the end user and disclosure, if the maker is honest and upfront with the buyer and the buyer is satisfied no ones opinion really matters.

I have a genuine respect for all types of makers and artist for that matter be it painting, woodworking or knifemaking. It takes talent to craft stuff that folks want to lay down money for.

As for all the organizations currently trying to struggle with technology and methods makers use, I want no part of it, I have been in the U.S. Army for over 16 years and have excepted and by regulation been told how to do things. The last thing I want to do or pay for is for someone to tell me how I need to make my knives.

Edit to add: Some one will bring up the whole make your own steel from dirt, cut the tree down for handle material and get your fire started by lighting etc, its one of my favorite arguments

I seriously doubt this will come of anything and it could get downright nasty

Just my opinions
Spencer

[Danbo]

As long as the maker is upfront and I know how the knife is made, I'm ok with whatever methods they need to use. Ok, now if the maker tells me his blades are ground by a 10 year old Chinese girl, I might have a little problem with that.

[Worker]

To me a end user consumer. I am mostly interested in the qaulity of the knife as opposed to how it got there. The process is less important.

[Iceman]

I think we all understand that there are different processes in making an end product. Everyone is free to chose how they want a product produced. To me, the process is not as important as the quality of the tool that is produced.






I keep getting mesmerized by Danbo's avatar.

[L R Harner]

i do dam near everything here in the shop but am thinking about the water jet thing for my little neckers for the same as sar

i do all my grinding heat treating and alot of my handle scales (making the blocks) and i like it that way

i run into problems when you get all the parts from a CNC shop and then put them together

[Matt Roberts]

I'm forward thinking even though I pursue antiquated production methods ...that's why I have a Tormach CNC mill coming in shortly.

Why should a maker waste his time on an insignificant process? I'm referring to bandsawing, drilling, slotting, and assembly. In my opinion everyone is better served by the maker focusing on the highly skilled processes; grinding, heat treating, fitting, finishing, etc.

As long as the maker is upfront about the processes involved who gives a damn if he had the blades waterjet cut? I just want a bitchin knife .

Matt

[Nathan S]

As long as the maker is upfront about the processes involved, who gives a damn if he had the blades waterjet cut? I just want a bitchin knife .

Yeah, that pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject. I'm interested more in the final result than the process.

[Les George]

If you realy want to make something from scratch, first you must make the universe...

Everyone starts with some "givens" and goes from there... All according to me anyways...

[RoadFish]

What counts is the final product. Why would I care if the maker didn't make his own steel for a blade? formulate his own nickel silver for the guard, raise his own mastedon calf and nurture it until the ivory is ripe for slabs? Everything is relative. Does using a BurrKing to form a blade then sent out to Paul Bos for heat treat make it inferior to draw filing a blade that the maker then heat treats in his forge and quenches in old hydraulic fluid? Every knife is to some degree a put together of others' materials, except maybe a knapped flint or stone knife.

[IWantThatKnife]

Ron,

I have a knife I just got from Fred Rowe; one of his hunters that he posted that he was taking to the Ohio Show. Fred started with bar stock, wood, pins, thong tube, thread, gas, and tools. He forged the blade, made the handle, cut the leather, made the knife and sheath without any outside help. SOLE AUTHORSHIP...

I have a 2 knife set by Fred, called the Bears; same thing except there were no sheaths - so Sandy Morrissey made sheaths and my former wife did the scrimshaw on them. Still SOLE AUTHORSHIP.

All three knives are marked Bethel Ridge Forge, Fred Rowe. As they should be; he made them...

The knife I made at the Grind-in? Del Ealy made the damascus; bar stock so far so good...I made the handle (ground and finished, but as you know I had help grinding the blade - I didn't do all the work by myself - so I won't stamp or otherwise put my name on it...

When I either do stock removal from bar stock or forge a blade myself....without the assistance of anyone else then I will put my maker's mark on it and proudly proclaim - I MADE THAT KNIFE.

I've actually sold someone a knife that I built...notice the word built. Someone wanted a scrimshawed knife - there weren't any affordable ivory handled gentlemen's knives available so I showed him a Darrel Ralph mini-605 kit. I told him I would put it together, add some ivory scales, and Diane would scrimshaw it for him and he accepted that. There is a big difference between build and make; even though at a couple of knife shows I have seen several Darrel Ralph kit knives being pawned off as being hand-made - by a dealer, not a maker. I also know there are some people who have raised the bar on engraving, filework, and finishing the kits but they even tell you straight up its a kit.

[mikeymoto]

In one way I think it depends on the customer's expectations. I can imagine at least a few kinds of customers:

1) Joe Bloe isn't into knives and needs something to cut stuff occasionally.
2) Hairy Mary is a knife collector and her collection is focused on American Revolution daggers and replicas.
3) Meat Loaf is a sushi chef and relies on his blades for his livelihood.
4) Tom Kat has exacting standards and wants cheap high quality knives for his collection of black-bladed knives.
5) Jane Doh is a collector of Brand X. Brand X has made knives for 80 years and hand-forges all of their knives; they are made completely in-house and all components are produced in the USA, though recently financial concerns have led them to investigate offshoring final assembly of the components.

Given these different knife customers, I think the question of sole authorship and its relative degrees of "purity" will be of more or less value. Some people might change the focus of their collection when a maker changes their production, others couldn't give a rat's ass in the first place.

I would like a maker to be open about the technologies used to make their products. As a customer it helps guide my buying decisions in accordance with my interests.

Some people may not care, some may be interested only in "hi tech" CNC products, and some may be in it for the human touch that goes into a knife.

[mikeymoto]

The knife I made at the Grind-in? Del Ealy made the damascus; bar stock so far so good...I made the handle (ground and finished, but as you know I had help grinding the blade - I didn't do all the work by myself - so I won't stamp or otherwise put my name on it...

This makes me wonder what it means to put your name on it, and if it matters where your name goes.

Think of the music industry. I don't know a lot about it, but I know sometimes one person writes the lyrics, then some band makes the music, then often someone else mixes the music and adjusts the levels and everything to come up with a finished product. So who made the music that customers purchase? Whose name should be on it? Well in the case of a compact disc the band's name and the album's title go on it, but every contributor is mentioned in the liner notes.

So I guess I feel that if you had a mental picture of a knife you wanted to make at the grind-in, and you got it made through your own work and contributions of others, then I wouldn't see a problem with you putting your name on it. As long as it comes with liner notes.