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Thread: S30V vs S35VN

  1. #1

    Question S30V vs S35VN

    We've all heard the story. S35VN is supposedly the next evolution of S30V. Similar edge retention with added toughness. That's what we were told. Well, not so fast.

    As S35VN has been becoming more available in knives, more tests are rolling in. Looks like the initial reports of similar edge holding with added toughness may have been just marketing hype. S30V may actually still be better overall due to large losses in edge holding with S35VN.

    Here's a relevant thread on bladeforums. In particular look for responses from CrimsonTideShooter and Ankerson.

    That thread includes video of rope cutting tests done on a wooden cutting board with a sebenza and native 5, both in S35VN. Both knives had their edge flatten, and these reports were corroborated by another bladeforums member.

    I'm interested in collecting as much solid information on this as possible. I'm not interested in responses of "s30v is hard to sharpen".

    So... Experiences? Thoughts?
    Last edited by Hostile; 12-04-2011 at 03:52 PM.

  2. #2
    Knife Moderator/Bark River Knife & Tool Mike Stewart's Avatar
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    Nobody -including Crucible - said that S35VN holds an edge as long as S30V.

    They Said that is has more Toughness and holds an edge longer than CPM154.

    They specifically said it does NOT have the same Edge Holding as S30V.

    Test away gents - it appears you are proving Crucible Correct.

    S35VN is far less likely to micro chip and it will ROLL before it Chips.

    Again - You Seem to be proving them correct.

    You might not want to hear about S30V being hard to sharpen but the Rest of us DO care about that.

    A Super Steel knife that is Dull in the Field is just another thing to throw in the weeds.

    The problem with S30V is that if you can't get it perfectly sharp - It is a Nightmare for MOST people.

    Don't You tell ME about Diamond hones - they just compound the problem.

    The introduction of S35VN was to specifically overcome the working - sharpening and chipping problems by having great edge holding and having it easier to sharpen for CUSTOMERS of the knife makers.

    They never said S35VN held an edge longer than a properly sharpened S30v Blade. The problem is finding an average customer with a properly sharpened S30V blade.

    Mike
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  3. #3
    People on this forum are not average customers, and that's who I'm talking to.

    People who don't want to carry S30V (or S35VN for that matter) because of problems they have in the field are making their own choice, and they are free to make it, and that makes this thread irrelevant to them.

    For the purposes of this discussion, I have no interest in what is best for Chris Reeve's or Spyderco's bottom line. They can worry about that themselves. Just talking steels here.

    I'm not military and I don't live in the woods. I have no problems sharpening S30V. These tests are showing S35VN edges flattening and ending up with similar edge holding to 8CR13MOV.

    That's pretty bad, and I don't think people are informed about it, even if you do.

  4. #4
    There are so many variables when testing the sharpness and edge holding of different knives. My current carry knife is S35VN at 60rc and it holds a great edge and sharpens up without to much trouble. I have had problems with S30V not staying sharp very long and thanks to Mr. Stewart I now know why.
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  5. #5
    Knife Moderator/Bark River Knife & Tool Mike Stewart's Avatar
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    If it's OK with You I'm just going to keep my own opinions and tell folks the results I get with steels.

    People are also free to believe anyone they want to.

    When I do S35VN it does not Flatten on the edge - I don't know what other Companies do and how they heat treat their steel or what geometry they use.

    You failed to even bring those two points up but they make a HUGE difference in how a given steel will perform.

    I don't have anS35VN blade from either Chris Reeve or Spyderco so I have no Clue on whatever you are saying about their Bottom line.

    I certainly hope that no matter what they do - they are profitable - they are far too valuable to our industry to disappear due to lack of profits (I guess that is what you mean by their bottom line)

    My personal Sebenza is a BG-42 blade - My Personal Spyderco has a ZDP-189 blade so I am little help in your attack on them.

    My results are my results. Folks here are totally free to believe any results they want to.

    My results seem to fall in line with those of Crucible and Carpenter.

    I guess all three of us could be wrong.
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  6. #6
    Knife Moderator/Bark River Knife & Tool Mike Stewart's Avatar
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    I did want to make Clear that I Don't have any misguided loyalty to any of the Steel Companies.

    I have used: and still plan to use:

    Crucible

    Carpenter

    LaTrobe

    Uddeholm

    Sandvik

    and others

    My loyalty is to the members here and my customers.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Stewart View Post
    When I do S35VN it does not Flatten on the edge - I don't know what other Companies do and how they heat treat their steel or what geometry they use.

    You failed to even bring those two points up but they make a HUGE difference in how a given steel will perform.
    I don't know, myself. I have some idea, but that's why I came here to discuss it. On a discussion forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Stewart View Post
    I don't have anS35VN blade from either Chris Reeve or Spyderco so I have no Clue on whatever you are saying about their Bottom line.
    You keep bringing up the average user, which is the average customer of the two knife companies I mentioned. I don't care about the average user that those companies have to sell to for the purposes of this discussion because it is not helpful in getting to the bottom of this issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Stewart View Post
    I certainly hope that no matter what they do - they are profitable - they are far too valuable to our industry to disappear due to lack of profits (I guess that is what you mean by their bottom line)
    Me too, I'm actually a spyderco nut. That's why I qualified the statement with "For the purposes of this discussion". That's what that means. You seem determined to make this thread personal or an attack of some kind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Stewart View Post
    My personal Sebenza is a BG-42 blade - My Personal Spyderco has a ZDP-189 blade so I am little help in your attack on them.
    Relax. This is not an attack. I'm not sure what made you think that. Are we not allowed to discuss possible steel myths without it being a drama-fest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Stewart View Post
    My results are my results. Folks here are totally free to believe any results they want to.
    That's cool with me. Makes me wonder what the failure is in the knives that the two users on bladeforums have used.

    Surely someone on the forum has experience with the new S35VN sebenzas.

    (Oh, and btw, I said similar edge holding in the first post. Not better. Not the same. A subtle distinction, perhaps, but one worth mentioning.)

  8. #8
    Knife Moderator/Bark River Knife & Tool Mike Stewart's Avatar
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    I guess the only think I have to add is that this forum is full of average users.

    You are overestimating the average knife enthusiast.

    i know different - I get to sharpen a lot of their knives.

    The number one complaint is that they can't sharpen S30V.

    Some of the very very very best home and professional sharpeners are kitchen knife enthusiasts.

    Just ask them yourself.

    They HATE S30v and usually will Dump any Chef knife in S30V very Quickly because they can't get it sharp enough to hold it's magnificent edge.

    These folks are totally anal about the word Sharp - they take edges down to 30,000 Grit Finishes

    They HATE S30v.

    We are about to find out how they like S35VN at 62.

    Results should be back in early 2012.

    Those kitchen knife Folks are NOT the Average Customer - Here on the JD and most other Forums I have seen - People Talk a better game on sharpening than they actually can do.

    I am a hopeless man of Practicality.

    When the Average Customer of the Average Forum tells us that they can't sharpen something - I--like an Idiot - Believe them.

    When I make a Run of 300 Knives in S30v and my Crew - who make knives for a living - tell me that the entire run of S30V knives is a nightmare to sharpen - Again - like an Idiot - I believe them.

    I am not some theorist that sits and isolates one edge and one type of rope and sits there until the cows come home cutting it.

    When I don't know Something-I say - "I don't know"

    When I say something definitive - it is because I actually know it.

    I think you need to carry on and we can let the folks here take everything everyone has said and make up their Own minds.

    Thanks,


    Mike

    PS: Parsing what people post is annoying and taking statements out of context. if You have something to say - Just say it.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Stewart View Post
    We are about to find out how they like S35VN at 62.

    Results should be back in early 2012.
    I can't wait for the results! I hope you'll report them here.

    As for parsing, I think it's extremely helpful, especially when you bring up as many things as you did, so we'll just have to disagree on that. To each their own!

    You've made your views more than clear about people and S30V sharpening.

    Do you see, though, that we are no closer to figuring out what the cause of S35VN's poor performance was for those two bladeforums users? This is why I keep saying that it's not relevant to this discussion. We are no further along the path of knowledge. So far anyone reading replies in this thread has learned that S30V is hard to sharpen. They could have learned that in every other S30V thread since it is always mentioned.

    I don't have a sebenza or a native 5 to carry. If/when I do, I will absolutely report tests and findings. In the meantime, I think I'll post on a knife forum and talk to other people who might have experiences with this stuff.

    Oh, that's what I'm doing right now!

  10. #10
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    i have a s30v folder i carry it everyday and i use it a lot, no problems sharpening it, as far as mike's example on a chef knife i have no clue but i trust his experience on it, I would love to see the results as well on that s35vn , i have several knives i use in many steels and they are all sharp , many people don't know how to sharp their knives i find out.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Stewart View Post
    Nobody -including Crucible - said that S35VN holds an edge as long as S30V.

    They Said that is has more Toughness and holds an edge longer than CPM154.

    They specifically said it does NOT have the same Edge Holding as S30V.

    Test away gents - it appears you are proving Crucible Correct.

    S35VN is far less likely to micro chip and it will ROLL before it Chips.

    Again - You Seem to be proving them correct.

    You might not want to hear about S30V being hard to sharpen but the Rest of us DO care about that.

    A Super Steel knife that is Dull in the Field is just another thing to throw in the weeds.

    The problem with S30V is that if you can't get it perfectly sharp - It is a Nightmare for MOST people.

    Don't You tell ME about Diamond hones - they just compound the problem.

    The introduction of S35VN was to specifically overcome the working - sharpening and chipping problems by having great edge holding and having it easier to sharpen for CUSTOMERS of the knife makers.

    They never said S35VN held an edge longer than a properly sharpened S30v Blade. The problem is finding an average customer with a properly sharpened S30V blade.

    Mike

    Thank you for providing this info. I have been hearing much about the debate lately and I'm glad to hear this side of the issue for a change. Personally, I think I am going to like this steel (for my uses anyways)
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  12. #12
    I was under the same impression I think as Mike, it's a slightly different feature set you're getting in the S35VN. The only things I ever heard it was better at than S30V were its ease of sharpening and it's supposidly easier to bring to a high polish. Then again, I like CPM154 just fine, and don't really own that many S30V blades because they're hard for even me to sharpen, and I sharpen my fair share of knives.

    The problem is S35VN isn't a huge step up in quality (this is just in my experience) for the price over competative steels like 154CM or comparables from Carpenter, Sandvik, Latrobe, ect
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  13. #13
    I have never had a problem getting S30V sharp. Well not since I got some decent sharpening equipment that is. I was relying on a Sharpmaker for a long time and then got serious and invested in a DMT DuoSharp (fine and extra fine) and a Spyderco fine benchstone. I have this really old S30V Military that had a crappy edge on it and with this new equipment I was easily able to put a fantastic edge on it.

    That said I have been less happy with the edge I get on my SMF. But that may well be due to the edge geometry. I also suspect the Strider is treated a bit harder. Its a good enough edge but it could be better. I pretty much use only the extra fine DMT and the Spydie stone. I have only used the fine DMT on some old kitchen knives that were really blunt. And yeah, my kitchen knives are all screaming sharp now. I love that Duosharp!

    I think if you have the right equipment you can sharpen anything. The biggest challenge is not the steel but the edge geometry, keeping the angles even, all that.

  14. #14
    I've only used the S30V in the ZT0300 and I fucking hate that steel. I've chipped the blade pruning my wife's roses and it's a pain to sharpen.

    Once I get free time I'm going to reblade it with an Elmax blade. Elmax is stinking wonderful steel.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Jericoh-Actual View Post
    I've only used the S30V in the ZT0300 and I fucking hate that steel. I've chipped the blade pruning my wife's roses and it's a pain to sharpen.

    Once I get free time I'm going to reblade it with an Elmax blade. Elmax is stinking wonderful steel.
    I find S30V pretty easy to get sharp. With the ZT30X's thick grind, I find that it's not chippy too. Once I reprofiled it, a few swipes on the sharpmaker keeps it hair whittling.

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