View Full Version : need help on an anti gun board
09-20-2009, 09:34 AM
I frequent some other boards that have nothing to do with guns. I recently posted my feeling about a trade show promoter banning firearms at his trade show in a gun freindly state. The show is in AZ and is a reptile show .
Need some help getting these guys some friendly advice. The funny thib is our own hobby of keeping reptiles will be taken away soon by this type of mentality (ie..making more regulation..more laws..more -policies)
Given my choice, I'd rather be at a show that banned handguns than at one where 50 or 100 people were carrying concealed. In the latter case, there are 50 to 100 chances of an accidental discharge, 50 to 100 chances of someone making a bad choice in a crowd because they've been dissed or jostled or been drinking or otherwise testosterone-challenged. Not everyone's gonna carry with all the good judgement and restraint that we'd hope for. Heck, YOU read the posts on this forum: aren't there some characters YOU wouldn't want carrying concealed at the next show? And they'd probably be scared by the thought of ME carrying.
Someone posted here that only the bad guys would bring guns to a show that bans concealed carry. Are we really that afraid as we go about our daily lives? (the joke would be to say here that if that's the case, then the terrorists have won). If I'm working at night in a high crime area, maybe it'd make sense to carry. But at a reptile show? Someone tell me how many trade shows, of the tens of thousands held each year, have been marred by people sneaking in guns and shooting up the places? That makes no more sense to me than carrying concealed at a town hall meeting or outdoor protests where emotions are high and scuffles break out.
09-20-2009, 10:41 AM
having taught the required course to obtain a CWP here in SC to thousands of people, I got a good idea of the types of people who obtain a CWP
plus, this stuff (the accidental discharges and random shootings) hasn't happened in all the years and all the states where CCW is legal
I'm sure there have been a handful of accidents, but all you have to do is look at the numbers and you'll see that stuff like that just doesn't happen to any degree
09-20-2009, 11:06 AM
Here is a reprint from a Detroit Free Press article. Michigan is a "shall issue" state for CCW permits, and this article discusses the relationship between violent crime and the loosening of CCW laws. The "Freep" as we call it here, is one of the most liberal papers in the nation, and even they had to concede to write the facts in this story:
Six years after new rules made it much easier to get a license to carry concealed weapons, the number of Michiganders legally packing heat has increased more than six-fold.
But dire predictions about increased violence and bloodshed have largely gone unfulfilled, according to law enforcement officials and, to the extent they can be measured, crime statistics.
The incidence of violent crime in Michigan in the six years since the law went into effect has been, on average, below the rate of the previous six years. The overall incidence of death from firearms, including suicide and accidents, also has declined.
More than 155,000 Michiganders -- about one in every 65 -- are now authorized to carry loaded guns as they go about their everyday affairs, according to Michigan State Police records.
About 25,000 people had CCW permits in Michigan before the law changed in 2001.
"I think the general consensus out there from law enforcement is that things were not as bad as we expected," said Woodhaven Police Chief Michael Martin, cochair of the legislative committee for the Michigan Association of Chiefs of Police. "There are problems with gun violence. But ... I think we can breathe a sigh of relief that what we anticipated didn't happen."
John Lott, a visiting professor at the University of Maryland who has done extensive research on the role of firearms in American society, said the results in Michigan since the law changed don't surprise him.
Academic studies of concealed weapons laws that generally allow citizens to obtain permits have shown different results, Lott said. About two-thirds of the studies suggest the laws reduce crime; the rest show no net effect, he said.
But no peer-reviewed study has ever shown that crime increases when jurisdictions enact changes like those put in place by the Legislature and then-Gov. John Engler in 2000, Lott said.
In Michigan and elsewhere (liberal permitting is the rule in about 40 states), those who seek CCW permits, get training and pay licensing fees tend to be "the kind of people who don't break laws," Lott said.
Nationally, the rate of CCW permits being revoked is very low, he said. State Police reports in Michigan indicate that 2,178 permits have been revoked or suspended since 2001, slightly more than 1% of those issued.
Another State Police report found that 175 Michigan permit holders were convicted of a crime, most of them nonviolent, requiring revocation or suspension of their permits between July 1, 2005, and June 30, 2006.
But even if more armed citizens have not wreaked havoc, some critics of Michigan's law chafe at how it was passed: against stiff opposition in a lame duck legislative session and attached to an appropriation that nullified efforts at repeal by referendum.
Kenneth Levin, a West Bloomfield physician, was one of those critics. In a letter to the Free Press in July 2001, he referred to the "inevitable first victim of road or workplace rage as a result of this law."
Last month, Levin said he suspected "it probably hasn't turned out as bad as I thought. I don't think I was wrong, but my worst fears weren't realized."
But the manner in which the law was enacted was nevertheless "sneaky" and "undemocratic," Levin said.
Other opponents remain convinced that it has contributed to an ongoing epidemic of firearms-related death and destruction.
Shikha Hamilton of Grosse Pointe, president of the Michigan chapter of the anti-gun group Million Moms March, said she believes overall gun violence (including suicide and accidental shootings) is up in Michigan since 2001. Many incidents involving CCW permit holders have not been widely reported, she said.
The most publicized recent case came early in 2007, when a 40-year-old Macomb County woman fired from her vehicle toward the driver of a truck she claimed had cut her off on I-94. Bernadette Headd was convicted of assault and sentenced to two years in prison.
Hamilton said that even if gun violence has ebbed, it remains pervasive, tragic and unnecessary. At the least, a more liberal concealed weapons law means there are more guns in homes and cars and on the street, she said, and more potential for disaster.
Advocates for the law argue that there is nothing equivocal about the experience of the CCW permit holders who have warded off threats and, in a few instances, saved themselves from harm.
In September, a 36-year-old Troy man killed an armed 18-year-old assailant who, with three other suspects, attempted to steal his car outside Detroit Police headquarters.
Michelle Reurink, 40, a consultant in Lansing, got her CCW permit last year, not so much because she felt an imminent threat to her well-being, she said, but because she's a strong believer in the Constitution's Second Amendment -- the right to bear arms.
"The primary reason I got it is because I feel like I have the right to have it," she said.
Still, she doesn't often carry her gun during her daily routine, though she takes it when she and her husband go on their boat, she said.
Having the license and a handgun makes her feel more secure in her home (where no one needs a CCW license to have a gun), she said. She also feels more secure because of the required training, including self-defense lessons, she took as part of the license application.
Mark Cortis of Royal Oak, who conducts concealed weapons license training and sits on the Oakland County gun board, said he believes the benefits of an armed citizenry are evident in small ways almost every day, as permit holders deter trouble and live more confidently.
"The police just can't protect you," Cortis said. "If you have to call 911, it's probably already too late."
Hope this helps.
09-20-2009, 02:41 PM
Thanks for that. I am going to use the article.
09-20-2009, 02:45 PM
Why on earth would someone need to carry a gun at a reptile show??
09-20-2009, 04:18 PM
Need some help getting these guys some friendly advice.
Can do. I love a good debate/argument/brawl and it doesn't matter to me whether the opponent is actually here to defend his position. :devil1:
Given my choice, I'd rather be at a show that banned handguns than at one where 50 or 100 people were carrying concealed. In the latter case, there are 50 to 100 chances of an accidental discharge, 50 to 100 chances of someone making a bad choice in a crowd because they've been dissed or jostled or been drinking or otherwise testosterone-challenged.
Nope. There are not 50 to 100 chances of those things happening because the astronomically huge majority of people carrying guns at a show will have a 0% chance of an accidental discharge (because they're not dicking around with their gun) and a 0% chance of "making a bad choice" because sane law-abiding men just don't do that in reality even under the influence of alcohol or testosterone or anger. Ever see a news story about guys gunning each other dead over a spilled cup of coffee because the carry laws were relaxed there? No? That's because it simply doesn't happen. How many of us here carry a knife every day without stabbing people who irritate us? It's the exact same thing.
Why carry at the show then if it's not likely to be needed? It's just good to be able to carry everywhere. We must enjoy or legal rights fully or they get stolen. It's that simple. Also bizarre things do happen. I don't fear for my life when I sit down in a nice restaurant, should I be allowed to carry a gun there? What if we consider that guy who ran his truck into such an establishment in Texas and walked around murdering and viciously wounding dozens of people unchallenged because it was a "gun-free zone"? That was not a hypothetical argument. That was a real tragedy that made corpses out of people just like your mother, your brother, and your child.
Why on earth would any civilian carry a gun? After all the odds of needed it on any given day are like one in a trillion. Maybe it's because the odds that every day many people in this country will be raped and/or killed and/or robbed are 100%. It might not be happening near you or me right this minute but there's a very realistic chance that crime will face us, our family, or our friends in the future.
Ever notice how crime drops when citizens start packing? It does happen very reliably. Crime happens to victims. It does not happen in the face of overwhelming righteous might.
Heck, YOU read the posts on this forum: aren't there some characters YOU wouldn't want carrying concealed at the next show? And they'd probably be scared by the thought of ME carrying.
Then it's a good thing it's not your, his, or my place to judge who can protect themselves. How arrogant does someone have to be to say such a thing? Also if him carrying a gun is scary maybe he should learn the responsible ownership and use of a firearm and maybe then he would begin to understand the issue on a competent level.
Someone posted here that only the bad guys would bring guns to a show that bans concealed carry. Are we really that afraid as we go about our daily lives?
The one living in fear is the one paranoid that guns explode on their own or jump out of people's pants and slaughter buses full of nuns and schoolkids.
A reasonable man is not afraid that he, his friends, and other reasonable people are incapable of carrying a chunk of metal without constantly looking for a way to misuse it. A reasonable man is not as afraid of crime because he knows he is not helpless.
09-20-2009, 05:07 PM
Why on earth would someone need to carry a gun at a reptile show??
Are you retarded?
09-20-2009, 05:53 PM
Green sent to Rat, red sent to knife junky.
09-20-2009, 06:08 PM
No dumb ass it was a legit question.. Why would you need a gun at a reptile show?? Red right back at ya..
Are you retarded?
09-20-2009, 06:23 PM
Anyone who thinks people should have to justify carrying a gun is a retard.
09-20-2009, 06:24 PM
If it's his right to carry and a person is in legal possession of a gun... who cares where it's carried? Reptile show or a fucking bake sale....
I think we all know that maybe nothing would happen at a reptile show, but to and from, something could happen. Never hurts to be prepared...
I'm sure at least once in the history of Reptile shows in this country some poor sap was car jacked or mugged, etc.
Shit happens when and where the perp wants it to, not where the victim wants it to. Having your weapon can change that.
09-20-2009, 06:32 PM
I am going to suggest, :stop: the infighting and I am fairly certain this thread is not going to do well here. I suggest leaving this cross forum shit on the reptile/bake sale forum[s] for best measure.
Knock the infighting off as well, reputards!
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