5.56 Effectivness. *with video*

[Mr.LaBella]

As many of you know, I am a HUUUUUUGE fan of 5.56, call me a fanboy if you will. Here is a video of 5.56 in action, but it is the SS109 ammo. This ammo is known for penetration, not lethality. And even so, it seems to do an OK job. Had it been M193 it would be a different story. I will post my M193 vids when I find them.


VIDEO - 140megs, gunshot wounds, battle, gore...this is your warning pussys :poke:

http://downloads.planetmirror.com/pub/nextwish/misc/www.fallujah.us-Marines-shoot-at-Insurgents-in-a-bus.avi

[Tinysd]

link not worky :hityou:

[Mr.LaBella]

FIXED

[Dylan]

7.62>5.56

[007]

I think they should forget about the rules against mushroom bullets and 5.56 would be a lot more effective. I mean you can get blown up with grenades etc, so those rules don't make a lot of sense.

[WT351]

From what I understand, and I am no expert, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.....

The problem with any type of expanding bullet design in the 5.56 is that it leads to separation of the bullet core and jacket. So if you take a 50grn total weight bullet and remove it's jacket, you now have roughly a 35-40grn projectile (the size of standard .22LR lead bullets, albeit the 5.56 moves faster). If the jacket peels off as soon as it enters it's target then you have substantially less mass driving deeper into the target. The only way to be truly more effective is to reach vital organs. Superficial flesh wounds only slow down and annoy, not stop.

In a controlled substance, penetration is usually a function of mass and velocity. While the 5.56 has plenty of velocity over normal ranges, it's mass has always been a sticking point for some (especially proponents of the 7.62). So in order for the bullet to be it's most effective it really needs to remain together as long as possible. As soon as the bullet starts to expand, it will begin to fragment. So now, with fragmenting ammunition, you have a light bullet that won't travel very deeply due to it losing all of it's force while fragmenting upon initial entry.

In some situations, this is acceptable. Law enforcement is typically a large end user of fragmenting 5.56. The most frequent use of 5.56 in this role is in or around residences and against unarmored targets.

For the military, this is not the case. The majority of military targets are expected to be at least minimally armored.

A quick note on the history of the 5.56. It was originally intended to wound, not kill. It was never meant to be a one shot stop round. The designers and supporters figured that if you wound a combatant, it will take two of his fellow combatants to drag him around the battle zone. If you kill him, they will leave him there and continue the fight for themselves. The 5.56 is supposed to stay together and tumble through it's target causing ragged wounds that are hard to quickly patch up.

The mechanics of feeding and firing expanding bullet profiles is another issue all together. A lot of service grade weapons will choke on any type of hollow point bullet profile. They run great with FMJ rounds though. My AR will feed HP, but I don't drag it thought the dust and the mud all over the world either. As clean as my weapon is, it still tends to damage the tips of HP bullets. On something the size of a 5.56 you are talking about a very tiny hole at the top that actually makes it a hollow point. The slightest impact to the point collapses that hole and turns it back into a non-expanding round.

Enough spewing....I just wanted to throw a few thoughts out there.

[007]

Not at all. That was an excellent post! :gogdog:

[Stabber]

Kax, Another satisfied fan of the Mousegun aey?The Military uses it for a reason!

[Lemmy]

The .308 is superior. The military uses the .223 because it is lighter and fighters can carry more ammo. Also, wounded soldiers are more expensive than dead ones. The troops in Afghanistan found the .308 better for the the longer ranges.

[borinquen]

b's next gun,a FAL in .308 of course :gogdog:

[Roadrunner]

The .308 is superior. The military uses the .223 because it is lighter and fighters can carry more ammo. Also, wounded soldiers are more expensive than dead ones. The troops in Afghanistan found the .308 better for the the longer ranges.

Your post is kind of contradictory. The .308 is definitely a superior killing round, but it's also heavier. So for some applications the .308 is superior and for others the 5.56 is a better choice. Depends on what you need your weapon to do.

[007]

Sounds like what we need is to neck the 5.56 up to get a bigger bullet in the same package.

[Bonzo]

The 5.56 is supposed to stay together and tumble through it's target causing ragged wounds that are hard to quickly patch up.

Mr. WT351,

You pretty much nailed that cold hard fact to the wall. A lot of limb hits ended up in the chest area due to the tumbling effect of the .223 in Vietnam according to one of my buddies who had 11 confirmed kills as an Army grunt while there. The argument over .223 vs 7.62 will never end. The M-16 is more accurate than the AK-47 because the AK has the rear site too far forward. Personally, I'd rather see our soldiers killing ragheads with a .308 NATO round rather than the 5.56 round. I'd rather kill my enemy than wound him.



Best regards,

Bonz

[007]

Amen, Bonzo, if he's only wounded the prick might shoot back. :punish:

[Lemmy]

The .308 is superior. The military uses the .223 because it is lighter and fighters can carry more ammo. Also, wounded soldiers are more expensive than dead ones. The troops in Afghanistan found the .308 better for the the longer ranges.

Your post is kind of contradictory. The .308 is definitely a superior killing round, but it's also heavier. So for some applications the .308 is superior and for others the 5.56 is a better choice. Depends on what you need your weapon to do.

You are correct. It does depend on what you need it for. But, I would prefer that my weapon kill with the first shot. I just hope I never have to find out if it will. Well, maybe a deer or a yodle dog. That would be ok.

[WT351]

Personally, I'd rather see our soldiers killing ragheads with a .308 NATO round rather than the 5.56 round. I'd rather kill my enemy than wound him.

I agree with that statement. I forgot to mention that above. In my opinion, the soldiers would be happier with 7.62. Soldiers don't like being shot at...if they kill their target, it will not shoot at them any more. Even a wounded target can and will shoot back. In my opinion, the desire to stay with the 5.56 is an academic decision made by non field personnel.

The 5.56 system is a lighter system to carry, but there are a lot of people fielding 7.62 systems in the world. It can't be all that tough.

All I can say is that anything is better than an M1 Carbine for a battle rifle. Yes, I know it was never intended as a battle rifle, but there sure were a lot of them used in battle.

[GogDog]

Military/Paramilitary forces use jacketed ammo because it penetrates body armor better than non jacketed.

[/lesson]

[Bonzo]

Mr. WT351,


The US Government gave the South Korean scores of surplus M1 rifles after the mass production of the M14. The little Koreans had absolutely no problem with the M1, and as a result, they became the most badass killing machines in Asia during Vietnam. The VC and NVA were scared shitless of the ROK Marines, and our armed forces attained a profound and deep respect for them as well, cause we knew they killed anyone who fucked with them. I once read their kill/loss ratio was somewhere around 33 to 1. All this whilst humping .308 nontheless. It all boils down to who's better trained to adapt and kill.


Best regards,

Bonz

[WT351]

Mr. WT351,


The US Government gave the South Korean scores of surplus M1 rifles after the mass production of the M14. The little Koreans had absolutely no problem with the M1, and as a result, they became the most badass killing machines in Asia during Vietnam. The VC and NVA were scared shitless of the ROK Marines, and our armed forces attained a profound and deep respect for them as well, cause we knew they killed anyone who fucked with them. I once read their kill/loss ratio was somewhere around 33 to 1. All this whilst humping .308 nontheless. It all boils down to who's better trained to adapt and kill.


Best regards,

Bonz

Ah, yes, M1 rifle good. M1 Carbine bad.
All I can say is that anything is better than an M1 Carbine for a battle rifle.

[rbruce]

The .308 is superior. The military uses the .223 because it is lighter and fighters can carry more ammo. Also, wounded soldiers are more expensive than dead ones. The troops in Afghanistan found the .308 better for the the longer ranges.

Your post is kind of contradictory. The .308 is definitely a superior killing round, but it's also heavier. So for some applications the .308 is superior and for others the 5.56 is a better choice. Depends on what you need your weapon to do.

I have high hopes for the 6.8 SPC.


Robert

[Ken Brock]

the 5.56 can be effective with proper ammo

going to the green tip round is what really caused problems

the original rounds were designed to destabilize and tumble which caused more damage

the green tip rounds punch on through doing minimal damage

[jimmer_5]

Okay - since some people have been digging up old threads lately, I notice that Ron used to post in the 2nd Amendment forum more often. Why is it that he is "not allowed" in here anymore?

[Soup_Monger]

Okay - since some people have been digging up old threads lately, I notice that Ron used to post in the 2nd Amendment forum more often. Why is it that he is "not allowed" in here anymore?

Because he knows nothing about them.

[Stabber]

Yep!!

But he sure knows his Sebenza's:ronl:

[Parker]

All the more reason Ron belongs in here!

[Ken Brock]

Okay - since some people have been digging up old threads lately, I notice that Ron used to post in the 2nd Amendment forum more often. Why is it that he is "not allowed" in here anymore?


Ron doesn't even know which end the bullet comes out of

[Parker]

Ron doesn't even know which end the bullet comes out of

The one pointed at him when his girlfriend calls him by his pet name - HELP POLICE!!

[Mr.LaBella]

Okay - since some people have been digging up old threads lately, I notice that Ron used to post in the 2nd Amendment forum more often. Why is it that he is "not allowed" in here anymore?

Truly, out of respect for Bob Bartoli. :rip: I will let someone else find you the exact link...

[Soup_Monger]

Truly, out of respect for Bob Bartoli. :rip: I will let someone else find you the exact link...


I looked for it last night... but... couldn't find it.

[RoyalM]

I know 'Future Weapons' is not a gospel but i'm sure I saw an episode recently were Mac was testing an in between calibre of round 6.8 instead of 5.56 or 7.62, apparently Barrett are developing it. This round has the best from both other calibres in lightness, stopping power and effective range.

http://www.barrettrifles.com/ammo_6.8.aspx


dHreIMu1d6M

If I have to choose I would go 7.62mm. Using a G3, speaking to friends in Afghan the enemy don't drop when hit with 5.56mm.

[L R Harner]

even in the corps they tell you one shot one kill but give you a round to wound :ronl: one dead is one dead but one wounded is at least 2 and maybe you can hit that guy when there dragging wounded off the field

so far as ron well be he as great a man as he is guns and ammo he s not so he was "band" from this sub forum ish
its liek when i ask about a high end custom and am dazed as he spouts off names and stuff ( i = lost )

as it stands im wishing for an AR10 carbine with semi heavy barrel and i think A2 style that or one of those AR45s that i could use in the house

first things first tho
i need a truck and shop tools oooo and my own shop

[Ken Brock]

even in the corps they tell you one shot one kill but give you a round to wound :ronl: one dead is one dead but one wounded is at least 2 and maybe you can hit that guy when there dragging wounded off the field

so far as ron well be he as great a man as he is guns and ammo he s not so he was "band" from this sub forum ish
its liek when i ask about a high end custom and am dazed as he spouts off names and stuff ( i = lost )

as it stands im wishing for an AR10 carbine with semi heavy barrel and i think A2 style that or one of those AR45s that i could use in the house

first things first tho
i need a truck and shop tools oooo and my own shop


Ron SWEARS to me that you speak English.........................:cadi::Devilroar:

[Soup_Monger]

You ok Butch?

[nameless]

*Address Not Found... link not working?

[WT351]

I looked for it last night... but... couldn't find it.


Mr. Admit, Sir. I was wondering since you found your way into the gun section and posted such an old link that we have all seen several times, do you also,

Just decide one day to take your entire TV set apart? Like every part, wire, diode etc.? Of course you don't, cause you do not know shit about TV sets!!

Now please enjoy the gun section but remember treat it like your TV set that you know nothing about!!

If you need to get a new section going so you can post more and about things you am smart with, may I suggest a Dildo-Towing section!

Thanks for your time.
Robert

Beautiful stuff.

http://www.jerzeedevil.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8727

[Soup_Monger]

Thanks for finding that, WT.

Your search-fu is strong.

[hickster]

5.56 is vicious!
Remember the Washington beltway killer (Malvo & co.). With proper shot placement, the target is DOWN! In the original configuration (M-193 rounds trough a 20 inch barrel) were intended to tumble, break apart, and wreak havoc on body tissue). They break apart at the cannalure and, well, you know...
The 855 round (high velocity, with the the "ss109 bullet") is a penetrator designed to penetrate light armor (flac vests, which our current enemies do not have) common building materials (creates more "spall"), and vehicles. Seeing that our current enemies do not have vests and the building materials in the locations where we are fighting are shit (Heavier contruction? We'll just shoot it with Ma-duce and make it like a grenade just went off in the room). The ability to make more head shots just makes sense.
Oh yeah, the 7.62 and the .50 have their place, but a well placed 5.56 by the individual soldier works. Several of those "well placed 5.56's" tend to influence the enemies negotiating position quite effectively.
If they re-neg on that negotiated position, it's time for the cluster-bombs.
That's diplomacy.
bring it
hickster

[Blastmaster1972]

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb269/Blastmaster1972/Motivators/poster7318584.jpg

[stdlrf11]

A guy I currently work with spent 24 years in the Marines. He said once they hit the field, they would switch out for AK's because they needed to know that whatever they hit was down. He didn't want to worry about if the round went through the truck's sheet metal. He wanted to KNOW it did.






stdlrf11